Runaway Prius: Unintended Acceleration or Relaxed Cruise Control?
Jim Sykes and his runaway Prius
There’s a lot of hullabaloo about a Prius in San Diego, CA that supposedly lost control and drove for 30 miles. Of course, the news media is eating this up assuming its as part of the larger global Toyota recall of nearly 8 million vehicles but this particular car was not affected. Even if it were affected the car would have been going faster than it was. If it was so wildly out-of-control, why couldn’t it reach its max speed? Oh, and the Prius isn’t a muscle car so the brakes would have been plenty strong enough to overcome the torque from the engine. It wasn’t a case of unintended acceleration it was simply an excuse to speed… or get Jimmy out of his lease.
Jimmy Sykes’ 2008 Toyota Prius was covered under the floor mat recall, whereas the floor mat could get lodged under the pedal causing temporary pedal entrapment but was *not* affected by the pedal-specific issue, the very issue Jimmy described in his “15-minutes” press conference. The pedal-specific issue, which replicates the closest issue that anyone could assume would carry a car for 30 miles… wouldn’t actually carry a car for 30 miles. The pedal could have easily been lightly or even heavily tapped at any point during the 30-mile joy-ride to become dislodged, thus ending his spectacle and “15 minutes.”
Aspects of Jimmy’s story make sense, I’m sad to say, like admitting he was on the phone to a 911 operator; I’ll buy that. The fishiest part of the whole story was his speed. He remarked the ordeal began when he depressed the accelerator to pass another vehicle, presumably to the floor, and the pedal “did something kinda funny.” Or, more believably, he pressed “Cruise Control: On.” Or “Resume.” Because if the car were truly “out-of-control” the speed wouldn’t have been so casual. Let me explain. The CHP fighter-pilot, I mean officer, who escorted Jimmy back down to Earth from his high-speed rampage reported only 94MPH showing on his highly-calibrated Ford Police Interceptor speedometer… a little Internet research shows the Prius’ max speed is 99MPH, so the Prius was capable of going faster but Jimmy didn’t think to set cruise that fast. The second-gen Prius was, at the time, the most aerodynamic production vehicle sold in the United States with a drag coefficient of 0.26 tying only the Mercedes S-class from 2006 suggesting the car is capable of a lot faster than 99MPH but is electronically limited for the sake of various mechanical components.
As a reader of this Cars.vc, you know the Prius isn’t a particularly powerful car. Over 10 seconds to 60MPH and a net horsepower figure (combining both the electric motor and gas engine) as 110HP won’t impress. However, the nearly 300 lb-ft of torque is another story because Jimmy claims to have tried the brakes to no avail and just adds onto this great, stinky pile. Although the CHP officer smelled (no pun intended) the brakes when they came to a stop the brakes on the car were probably not used to the fullest potential until the end of the journey. In other words, sure he pressed them but likely just enough to have the lights come on and turn off the cruise control. The Prius’ brakes, standard automotive brakes, are two pads at each wheel squeezing a piece of spinning steel and are plenty strong enough to overcome the 300 lb-ft of torque the combined hybrid engine would have been producing (assuming it was at peak the entire journey, none-the-less) and could have brought the car to a halt. Or at least slowed it down. Or they would have caught fire (no joke) after 30 miles.
Jimmy’s story just doesn’t add up and its sad to see someone try to exploit a potentiality serious situation. Over 3 million Toyota cars sold worldwide were alone affected by the faulty pedal design and Jimmy’s Prius wasn’t part of it. However, on the outside chance that the pedal did become entraped, the electronics in the pedal failed, Jimmy had set cruise control at 99MPH instead of just 90-94MPH, and the brakes had failed, a perfect storm if you will, this story may have been believable. Its just not though because his story of “unintended acceleration” doesn’t add up so it looks like Jimmy’s not gonna be able to get out of his lease payments after all. One commenter online wrote: “I thought at first it was probably the father of the balloon boy taking the octo-mom on a date.”
Why do you think? Was it just a show? When his story is proven false, will he be charged with perjury AND get sued for slander by Toyota?
Well said. I never thought I would agree with this opinion, but I’m starting to view things from a different view. I definitely want research more on this as it appears quite interesting. One thing I don’t get though is how everything is related together.
You certainly aren’t the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Don’t you think a car’s top end will vary whether it’s going uphill, downhill, or with a headwind or tailwind?
DUH!
This guy appears to be a copy cat trying to cash in on Toyota’s recent challenges. He should be ashamed of himself for being a sue happy money grubber! How many others will ram thier Toyota’s into something to get out of a lease or try to get in line for the class action payday coming down the road! I can’t wait to see whatToyota’s engineers find. I am sure a van full on Ninjas is going over Jimmy’s prius right now!
I too am skeptical, but your reasoning is flawed.
1) No car reaches its top speed with brakes applied. The fishiest parts of his story are (a) Why didn’t he just reach over with his right index finger and flick the car into neutral? (b) Why didn’t stepping on the brakes send the engine speed back to idle (see point 2)? and (c) Why did he go 30 miles before doing what he finally did — press the stop button and turn the engine off?
2) In the 2008 Prius, when you press hard on the brake pedal, the computer sets engine speed back to idle. So there can’t be a struggle between brake power and engine power in this car. The computer will not allow that.
3) The hybrid power pack is not capable of producing full power for 30 miles. The traction battery would be drained well before then.
I smelled a skunk when I heard this panic stricken man drivers 911 call. What man does not get that throwing a car in neutral, would eventually slow down any car? The engine might still rev but with the tires unengaged it will slow down.
One his man card must be removed and second well, I will just save that for my inside voice.
Moving the shift lever to neutral in a 2008 Prius disengages the CVT (Continuously variable transmission) and the engine stops. The motor generators are also disengaged but the brakes, power steering, and air conditioning are unaffected. The brakes are electric and hydraulic and the power steering is electric as is the air conditioning. When the car stops at a red light, the engine stops running but the air conditioning continues. (The engine will run if heat is called for, or the big battery is very low and needs charging.) The car will run without the big battery but not without the small battery which is required to run the many onboard computers. (17 computers if I recall correctly) Systems have redundancies and most of the anti Toyota frenzy is most likely operator ignorance and operator error. Toyota should not sell sophisticated technology to tech challenged people of questionable intelligence. The ability to read and understand an owners manual should be a requirement.
As a European prius driver i can tell you Jimmy had plenty of options to avoid his lil adventure.
What i do miss in this discussion is the following:
The cruisecontrol can cause acceleration. It is intended to do so!
When you have a cruising speed of 90 mph and you hit reset the car will accelarate to 91 mph. Now if you keep the control to reset it will accelearte until you let go (and for a lil longer to finish all impulses as i have noticed)
So the only way Jimmy’s story ads up will be a stuck (or software defected) cruise control.
I wonder if they (toyota etc) have tested that option, or if they have focussed on de pedals because they think that is the only defect toyota created.
But even then i bet i can stop the Prius without any problems.
“stupid is as stupid does”
Man I wish I was on vacation. After a few nice days it is supposed to snow again!!! Arrgghhh, when will it end
So all of these Toyotas are being involved in these strange accidents that sound more and more like computer error and Toyota seems locked into their official story that there cannot possibly be wrong with their electronics so it must be “driver error.” My post below is long, consisting of a number of essays joined together, but it is an attempt to explain everything with one simple theory, bringing a number of issues together, in a “perfect storm” for Toyota. I hope some of it gains some traction. My ideas follow. Cheers and good will.
It is disgusting to see dealers such as this fluffing off valid complaints in such cavalier fashion. Such dealers seem incapable of expressing shame or remorse.
All the new “safety features” in new cars, such as ABS, Traction Control, Stability Control and Cruise Control, acting through common hardware elements controlled by computers are potentially death traps waiting to grab somebody. And considering the complexity of these issues, with the faults not necessarily confined to Toyota, the only realistic way to study these issues is the installation of data collectors on vehicles in question that will allow real-time collection of data in large quantities over long periods of time from large numbers of sensors. The sensors are already on board as parts of all the Emissions Controls and Safety Features. In addition one needs to capture the command and feedback signals from all the actuators, that is, what they were commanded to do and why, and how they actually responded. The other manufacturers are already largely in compliance with such rules as best can be determined by public information but Toyota is holding out to the bitter end, not saying how much of this data is already being collected and they are not sharing anyway, making the pathetic excuse that there is only one “special computer” in this country capable of accessing and evaluating this data.
Toyota claims that their systems save only several seconds of data and that only in response to an event forceful enough to trigger the air bags. But then they prove themselves liars by showing 20 minutes of data from the wild 30 mile ride of James Sipes, allegedly showing very rapid pumping of the brakes and full throttle application. But only when it seemed convenient. They could just as easily have destroyed the data if it had proved inconvenient. Toyota is not doing much to advance its own cause. David Strickland has declared them untruthful. I would add the terms deceitful and deceptive. Toyota needs to be brought into line and not with data collection systems of their own design.
Now let’s get things straight with Toyota. They have no interest joining the search for truth about all their vehicles. With $$ billions on the line why should they? They run around the country with what they claim is the only example of a “special computer” which is required to get any data from the Toyota Event Recorders (Black Boxes), which they claim require special programs to interpret anyway, and it’s all experimental and unproven, which is why they have not released any of this stuff. And most importantly that only a few seconds of data are retained in any event and only then into response to air bag deployment. Just to be sure I checked the Toyota web site recently and their official message remains the same. All of this makes one wonder what exactly those black boxed are good for. Well actually a lot more than Toyota has been letting on, if they can be believed in the James Sipes case, where they reconstructed the 20 minutes of data for the 30 mile ride. When it was convenient for them. There is a Laotian man in Minnesota sitting in jail since 2006 after being convicted of vehicular homicide since his Toyota raced out of control while he was claiming it was UA and even the jury is discussing how they think they convicted an innocent man, but I don’t see Toyota rushing up there to help out and all the prosecutor says is that she would allow the defense to examine the car again, when the first examination showed no defect. What about Toyota? They should not be allowed anywhere near another accident car. That means some independent parties should be given the codes to get data out of the black boxes and allowed to evaluate it somehow, possibly with Microsoft XCEL. What is going on in nothing less than a travesty.
(1) For example advice is given to simply press down on the parking brake. They only go to the rear wheels but they are completely mechanical, activated by cables. One only needs to sit in a Prius and play with the parking brake to detect the severe short-comings. It is clearly labeled to engage it with one press of the brake pedal and to disengage it with next push. So if one gives the parking brake a sharp clean shot with his foot, it goes down and stays down. But if he is nervous or stressed and wriggles it a little bit to make sure it is fully applied it comes unlatched and follows his foot up, something the driver might not notice. Or if it is applied and he checks and presses it again to make sure, perhaps because some police operator like in the James Sikes case in San Diego tells him to, well it come unglued. The lady talking to James Sipes was a “nervous Nelly” type anyway who seemed incredulous that the Sipes Prius was out of control in the first place. Not the type to inspire much confidence. The CHP along in his big Crown Vic had a much more commanding presence, demanding some respect at least.
(2) So next the driver is supposed to shift into neutral. So go sit in a new Prius in the showroom and check that one out. The Prius shift lever has a short throw and a vague feel, like a flight simulator game controller, that depends upon context for any meaning. But that is the whole idea, the Prius is sort of like a big video game much of the time, with all the video playing out across the dashboard, with many Prius owners especially the so-called hyper-milers trying to post big mileage numbers, so they can post them along their bio data on the Prius boards. The little tag on the steering column clearly states that the shift lever must be HELD IN NEUTRAL after shifting it there. I had not seen that one before. Besides shifting to neutral is “fly-by-wire” just like pressing on the brake pedal or gas pedal. The driver merely issues a request or a suggestion to the system. So nobody has really tested things out to see what would happen in the real-world, if somebody did actually shift a Prius into Neutral under WOT and failed brakes at high speed. Toyota won’t even admit that UA and failed brakes even occur and here they go telling us what to do about it
(3) Maybe Saylor the CHP cop did stand on the emergency brake and shift the little lever into neutral and neither did any good? How would we know? He and his family are dead and if there was anything on his EV Event Recorder, that indicated the true cause of the UA or loss of brakes or anything else incriminating to Toyota, Toyota could not be depended upon to help in its recovery and while pretending to attempt its recovery, would be in the perfect position to destroy all evidence and claim it never existed, actions which in the normal course of business would be called destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice. Again, Toyota should be forced to cough up everything having to do with those Black Boxes.
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(4)So the Government is not trying to hurt Toyota. Right on. Toyota and NHSTA until quite recently were going around the country conducting what passed for joint investigations and giving joint news conference and putting out news releases that NHSTA had bought into their story that everything had been checked out and nothing was involved besides driver error. Until it got so bad especially after the Saylor case in California, that NHSTA told them to stop it, that they were tired of being made the patsy like when NHSTA had to go before Congress and expose their incompetence to the world. Toyota frankly had been going around acting like NHSTA had been bought and paid for and they could use NHSTA as they pleased.
So a lot of SAFETY FEATURES have developed from modest beginnings, based on a few basic features in hardware, and enabled by increasing computer power. There is nothing wrong with the basic concepts behind these “safety features” if they actually work and if they actually increase safety. It is my view that we should continue to evaluate all these “safety features” in real time to evaluate their continuing usefulness. For example some studies indicate that overall ABS anti-lock brake systems do not improve overall collision and fatality experiences, with improved safety confined to multi-vehicle accidents with less safety in single vehicle accidents and this leads to the suggestion that perhaps ABS systems lead to more aggressive driving. But suppose that we subject that to critical analysis. ABS units are commonly installed along with Traction Control Units and Stability Control Units, all operating through the same basic hardware and software. Random faults in any one of three systems could be causing accidents without calling specific attention to themselves. Suppose that we had sophisticated Data Recorders capable of recording perhaps 100 channels of data, each at twice per second with increased capture rates in burst mode occurring with sudden changes in any parameter. These would be comparable to the units in jet transports capable of capturing over 700 channels of data at comparable rates but the ones in automobiles would be much cheaper due to less requirements for crash survivability and due to economy of large scale production etc. These Data Recorders could hold large amounts of data in internal memory and plugging a laptop computer into them via a USB cable would have them show up as just another external device from which data could be downloaded, just like digital cameras are handled. Or they could in addition store data on data cards such as the CF Compact Flash cards. These CF cards now cost about $3 per GB (up to 32 GB) and are quickly becoming cheaper and larger. There would be universal programs which would allow various displays of the data, such as graphics displays of all driver inputs along with responses of the brakes, throttle etc. These sets of data could be accessed at random moments for routine study or after suspicious events. Completely unsuspected inappropriate responses of brakes and throttle etc, causing no symptoms, might be detected just on casual observation of the video. Plus allow careful study of any suspicious events. This would be enhanced by good graphics programs, simplified by the vastly increased power of modern computers with high speed graphics cards. Data could be easily shared with other enthusiasts. There is no evidence that Toyota is engaged in any of this and their constant claims that there is not possibly any defects in their electronics comes across as decidedly anti-intellectual.
For example consider that both the Traction and Stability Control Units in the normal course of events go around casually applying brakes to one front wheel or the other as deemed appropriate, but if this somehow occurs unexpectedly with nothing suggesting that it is about to happen, it can lead to an uncontrollable turning motion, a force irresistible even if the driver knew it was coming, leading to swerving into another lane of traffic or completely off the road for example, especially dangerous if occurring out of the blue or during some other maneuver. The driver might not even recognize that such an event had occurred and police investigators would not even believe him even if he claimed it had occurred. Note that numerous Prius drivers have claimed this swerving motion happened to them and they all seem quite mystified by it, and seem not to have considered the basic feature of their electronic systems that would have made it possible. This may have happened to drivers of other brands of automobiles as well, but the Prius groups spend more time going into all sorts of mystifying things that have occurred to them, yet they seem to resist inputs from non-Prius drivers and people casting doubts about the Prius seem to have their rights to log on and comment quietly cancelled.
Many of the faults of which Prius owners complain online seem to be software related, but reading through lots of these posts reveal little if any attempt to define what the mechanism of the fault is. One would like to develop the simplest theory which explains all the known facts and to make predictions which could be tested by experimentation.
The Federal government requires that the newest jet transports monitor a minimum of 88 definite parameters in their “black boxes” but actually the manufactures have gone far beyond this, monitoring over 700 channels of data in the latest models, including lots of data from the engines, positions of controls in the cockpit, position of control surfaces, lots of data at intermediate points etc. In general these systems are designed to sort out intended from unintended (un-commanded) events (among other things.)
Data recorders are not mandated in automobiles for two more years but the Big 3 are generally installing them anyway and making readouts easily available to all interested parties whereas Toyota is holding on until the bitter end and will not have them until 2012. Flight data recorders in airplanes monitor over 700 channels of data typically several times per second, with much higher rates in burst mode if sudden changes are detected and typically record 17-25 hours of data. The requirements for automobiles are much less rigorous and not well described online. NHSTA has mostly been standing quietly by, waiting to see what the car manufacturers would do on their own. Good luck NHSTA, we are proud of you.
If Toyota really wanted to prove all its assertions about its electronics it would install data recorders capable of storing data for many hours from all significant sensors already on board as well as all commands issued to the hardware items. This would include all the signals (commands) to the brakes (pressure increase, decrease and hold) signals to the throttle and how these commands correlated with driver inputs from the gas pedal and the brake pedal etc. One should keep in mind that all commands to the throttle and brakes are merely “requests” since all systems are “fly-by-wire.” To repeat, there is no mechanical connection of the gas pedal or the brake pedal to the respective modules in the engine compartment.
Good data collection is increasingly feasible since digital memory is dirt cheap and getting cheaper, as well as coming in larger and larger capacities. Various “safety features” such as stability control will be mandatory in 2013, so it seems reasonable to establish ways to ensure that it is actually doing something for us. Perhaps supposed increased safety on the roads is due to over-zealous police action rather than any safety improvements in vehicles. This means that lots of problems caused by electronic “safety systems” can easily go undetected amid all the noise. Meaningful analysis requires breaking out the actual numbers, to place blame or credit where it belongs.
The ABS has yaw sensors to detect skidding sideways & speed sensors on all four wheels to prevent brake lockup, improving both stopping and steering . The ABS operates on slippery surfaces by using valves in the ABS brake control unit to increase and decrease braking forces at each wheel up to 20 times per second, yielding its familiar pulsation. The ECU simultaneously operates to reduce engine power as needed and this requires the ability to restore or INCREASE engine power when appropriate.
So next consider TRACTION CONTOL, which acts by detecting the drive wheel that is spinning the most and applying a braking force to that wheel, sending more power to the other wheel with less spin due to better traction and reducing engine power as part of the total effort. Note again that the system must be able to INCREASE (restore) as easily as it reduces engine power,
STABILITY CONTROL operates through the
Further, Toyota in its Prius model has this cute little feature that uses radar to help control the distance from the vehicle in front. Again one can see that the system must have the capability of either decreasing or INCREASING engine power and thus vehicle speed to get this done.
So we have all these neat safety features which depend on many different things operating perfectly in concert, controlled by computers, which must be operating without error. Notice that all of these features have the requirement of both decreasing and increasing engine power and vehicle speed. This provides the perfect mechanism to explain all the episodes of unintended acceleration UA that Toyota continues to deny, except to invoke bogus explanations like gas pedal entrapment under the floor mats and issues of stuck gas pedal which can be cured by inserting a magic little shim. These two explanations for UA meet with little acceptance outside of Toyota itself and those who seem to be their fan boys.
So my point is that all these software issues now interact with all the basic hardware features already on board to produce the PERFECT STORM for Toyota. So there was the well-publicized San Diego case of James Sipes, with the wild 20 minute 30 mile chase down the freeway, followed shortly by the case in Harrison NY where a Prius underwent UA from a standing stop and struck a stone wall. These two cases, the first at high speed and the second from a standing stop simply indicate to me that the PRIUS IS UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED.
Finally; some good info. I have just experienced my SECOND rapid acceleration incident in the same 2006 Prius. The 1st occurred in 2008; I thought it was “fixed” when the floor mats were tightened.
Just experienced the second incident; exactly the same as the first. While braking, and coming to the last few inches before a complete stop in a parking stall— the car”took off like a jet” over the no post, over a sidewalk, pushed aside a large full concrete planter and went thru the window of a bank. ( a women was working at her desk on the other side of the window.)
Luckily there were no physical injuries to her or to my passenger.
I am truly shocked at how little attention this incident has received from Toyota. They sent a technician to down load the black box and then sent a mass produced form letter declaring there was nothing wrong with the vehicle. The letter contained a bold faced lie— which causes me to know it was a form letter for use in these cases.
When I reported the story to a Transport Safety Organizations they said “course you know that Toyota denies any problems with the Prius BUT WE CONTINUE TO GET THESE REPORTS”
The interesting thing about my two incidents is that they were so identical in nature and both took place in the parking lot of a Bank. I am convinced that some sort of electronic interference, from telecommunications in the area, is creating abnormal operation of the acceleration/braking systems.
I want Toyota to know that if they think they have solved the Prius problem by tightening the floor mats—- they are sadly mistaken.
What would you suggest I do with my story to get Toyota’s attention?!?!
have a gut feeling that you could possibly be right.
Thought provoking info.